Project CARS 2 Confidence, where you fit in (1 Viewer)

[kobusnell]

Hi guys,

I'm still new, but really enjoying the community so far. I took part in the Willow Springs event, enjoyed it immensely, but made a mistake in the second race that caused an accident. Lost the rear, crash. Confidence shot.

To try and figure out where/if I fit in, I tried to do the qualifying time for the LMP2 cars at Road America. I spent a lot of time, trying different lines, braking points, setups, and eventually set a 1:54.98. Reading the thread itself, and the responses to the qualifying time, makes it sound like it should be trivial.

My questions

• How long does it generally take you to get used to a car/track combo if you've never driven them before? It took me probably about 4 hours to get where I am now.
• With a time like that, taking into account its time trial and I'm quite close to the limit, would I fit in a race like that? For Willow Springs I felt quite okay before hand, but then finished P12 first race. Maybe, seeing as I'm new, its okay?
• How hard do you concentrate on driving, focusing on exactly hitting the apex, straightening at the right time, etc, and how much comes naturally?

 

[Dutchtastic]

How long does it generally take you to get used to a car/track combo if you've never driven them before? It took me probably about 4 hours to get where I am now..

Heavily depends on what you as a driver are used to drive and if you know the track or not. Finding the flow of the track helps with finding a point of confidence with any car.

With a time like that, taking into account its time trial and I'm quite close to the limit, would I fit in a race like that? For Willow Springs I felt quite okay before hand, but then finished P12 first race. Maybe, seeing as I'm new, its okay?

Are you a drag racer or a diesel engine? If you are a diesel, you can be. A drag racer will struggle keeping the pace. Pace is way more important then qualification time as I noticed in the GTE seasn, terrible Q's and just slowly worked my way up doing clean and consistant laps.

How hard do you concentrate on driving, focusing on exactly hitting the apex, straightening at the right time, etc, and how much comes naturally?

Comes down to how well you know the track, that's either practice / experience. Same deal as with your first question.

 

[Cluck]

I am absolutely the worst person to answer these questions but, I'm a member, so I'll answer them

Q. How long does it generally take you to get used to a car/track combo if you've never driven them before?
A. Anything from a few seconds to never. I have a rather unique way of getting used to a car/circuit combo and it's one that doesn't sit well with a lot of people. My approach is simply to throw the car at the first corner as fast as I think it will go round it. If I crash, I try again, a little bit slower. If I get round with ease, I'll try again only with much more aggression. On to the next corner, rinse and repeat. For me, it's the quickest way of finding the car's limits. Realistic? God no, but it's a game, a game allows us to do what we like and get away with it. In the case of the Ligier and Road America, I was under the threshold on default setup within 6 laps on default setup, having never driven the combo before (I haven't driven Road America for a long while now, so I was a bit rusty on the first couple of laps). I then closed the radiator, leaving everything else default, and within another 10 laps I'd set a 1m53.5 lap.

Q. With a time like that, taking into account its time trial and I'm quite close to the limit, would I fit in a race like that?
A. The fact that you are asking the question suggests to me that there is doubt in your mind. If there's doubt in your mind, race in the GT3 class and gain some valuable experience in multi-class racing. As a counter to that, if you set yourself up a private multiplayer session, with the correct date/time/weather and you feel comfortable, then there is no reason why you shouldn't race in the LMP2 class.

Q. How hard do you concentrate on driving, focusing on exactly hitting the apex, straightening at the right time, etc, and how much comes naturally?
A. 99.9% of the time, I don't consciously think about what I'm doing - usually, when I take a moment to think about it, it results in a crash. That said, I rarely hit the apex, I rarely turn in at the right time, straighten the wheel at the right time, get on the throttle at the right time, exit the corner at the right angle and position, etc etc etc., but that is far less important to me than it might be to others. I don't study tracks to see what the 'correct' line is, where you're supposed to brake, how hard you're supposed to turn in. I get in the car and I go at the track like a man possessed, using whatever line feels natural to me, irrespective of whether or not it's the right line. Also, in the middle of a race, there really isn't time to 'think' about that sort of thing. You've got a track ahead of you, maybe some cars in the way, most likely some cars snapping at your heels, you've got fuel loads and tyres to worry about. If you're having to 'think' about your actual driving, you need to practice some more, until the basic process of driving becomes natural and instinctive. Then you can start focussing on the racing itself .


re. your opening paragraphs, don't be too hard on yourself. If you don't make a mistake, you're not trying hard enough, you're not finding out where the limits of your driving (and those around you) are. What matters is that you learn from those mistakes, apologise to those involved and try not to repeat them. The very fact you've started this thread suggests to me you are firmly in the "learning from my mistakes" category and that's exactly what we want from our members .

One final note and it's a wonderful cliché ..... Rome wasn't built in a day. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you need to leave your mark here, don't think you need to prove your worth from the outset. Drive to the best of your ability, no more, no less and be respectful of those around you. We can not and will not ask any more of you than that

 

[Zemke]

I've been here since February and still regularly finish towards the back of the field. Sure, I have good moments (as high as 3rd at Monza, 5th at Watkins Glen, and 6th at Hockenheim during Season 4) but I invariably screw up and lose control of the car at some point.
I feel like I still have A LOT to learn about a lot of things that are involved with sim racing, but I always try my best and also learn from my mistakes. I also believe it will be a long process (months to years) before I'm regularly fighting for top-5 finishes, much less race wins.
In the end, I'm having a hell of a fun time every week in RSR, and they haven't kicked me out yet. So, onwards and upwards!

 

[GosuNoob]

To answer your question at a higher level than what Cluck did, it completely comes down to you as an individual.
The time there is strictly to ensure a large enough gap from the back of the LMP field to the front of the GT3 field. We had an event a while back where this was not implemented, and the back of the LMP field was encroaching on the GT3 field.

I have found that all racers can be grouped into one of about 4 variants:
1- Time Trial Kings- these are people that make you question if they found a glitch in the matrix with the times they set. If they take pole and are not challenged in the first lap, they are completely untouchable. However when they are NOT in the front of the pack in a race, they tend to struggle.
2- Slow Starters- these are people who traditionally have terrible qualifying sessions, however through sheer will get better and better as a race develops. They are extremely perceptive to both the successes and failures actively happening on track, and are able to adjust their driving based on what they see to move up through the field as the race progresses.
3- Raging Blinders- I have no better way of categorising this group. They are a combination of Time Trial Kings, and the opposite of Slow Starters. They are very fast if left alone, however their lack of perception leads to a significant amount of incident involvement, and a lot of rage quitting. These are the people who believe if you are on their racing line, they can drive through you.
4- Road Warriors- these are people who are neither fast in time trial, nor in the race, however their perseverance means they finish above their pace. These are the admirable champions among us who despite wrecking 4-5 times in a race, just.... keep..... going...

With all that, in an endurance race you HAVE TO have at least some of the mindset of the final category. You have qualified to race in LMP as a class, and have to simply have the mental fortitude to run that from green to checkered flag. If you simply do that, you will finish well. Prepare for the race, adjust your setup, take tips from others, and then it's up to you to be able to push to YOUR limits for 2 hours.

 

[Jonno]

Lol i fit in to catagory 2 and 4 there lol..

 

[kobusnell]

Thanks for the replies all. It's very interesting to read your opinions. I didn't think about signing up for the race, merely wanted to test myself. I think I'll do a race sim anyway, even though there is less pressure, to test concentration. I'd love to one day race in a higher downforce class here, as I love the feeling of a car with a front end you can trust.

I'm definitely not a time trial king though. If I push hard I tend to make mistakes which costs a lot of time. I think I should practice getting out of my head.

But yeah, let me do a race sim, for myself.

 

[Taorminator]

My experience is that you have to realize that improvement comes in steps and you have to be patient and realistic with your goals. Once you have mastered a skill you can move up to the other etc.
1. I'd suggest to first master the skill of driving safely and with confidence in traffic. For that forget about pace or result. It can quickly become a strength and you'll finish higher than you should pace wise once you get it => induction and doing as many races with a cool head is the best way to practice!
2. Master consistency (I am still a long way to go myself here). Last race I finished P6 on a track/car combo I never did before and was obviously way off pace but keeping the car on the island granted me this! On the other hand there are countless of races I ruined even though I had good pace and confidence. For me it's more a mental and focus thing I have to improve for longer races.
3. Now look for reaching your pace potential. And for that I am not the guy to tell you how to do it. Don't try to be an alien right away, you'll find nothing but frustration. Try to identify someone with a similar pace and try to beat him as much as possible. Advices from those aliens are gold as well.

Don't forget to enjoy yourself and have fun, for me it has been the same as with parties : a good race usually happens when you don't have much expectation about it

 

[SteveO916]

But yeah, let me do a race sim, for myself.

create a private online lobby for yourself and fill with AI. Practicing in custom race mode sometimes is nothing like what you get online.

I'm afraid I cannot add much to a conversation about confidence....but those are some wise words above from Taorminator, and I could probably benefit by bearing them in mind...

 

[Jonno]

Allways practice in an online lobby even if its by yourself.. There is a big diffrence in online and offline testing as stupid as it sounds the physics play diffrent from offline to online.. Never use online practice session allways use quali session well thats what i do anyway lol.

 

[SBart_uk]

With a new car and track I find it can take anything from 25 up to 100 laps to understand the track & hit the ultimate pace

Allways practice in an online lobby even if its by yourself.. There is a big difference in online and offline testing as stupid as it sounds the physics play diffrent from offline to online.. Never use online practice session allways use quali session well thats what i do anyway lol.

I'm pretty sure this is a myth...I've never felt any difference between offline and online as long as the track conditions are set the same.

 

[Cluck]

There was definitely an observed problem in pCARS1, though nobody was ever able to reproduce it at will, so was almost impossible to prove (especially as a lot of it came down to 'feel').

Personally, I don't believe I've experienced it in pCARS2. There are times when the car has felt different but that's only ever when I haven't specifically loaded the car setup, and assumed it had loaded the correct one for me. The only downside to doing practice 'online' is that you can't simply jump to the next session when you're done, you have to let the timers run down. Other than that, there's no real harm in practicing for a race in as close to race setup as possible.

 

[Puffpirat]

Yeah the different feel comes almost certainly from the problem @miagi described with the pace lap. If you don’t focus on it and practice the formation laps your tire temps and pressures will be off, which makes the car feel odd, you lose confidence and never get the car back to where you want it.

 

[miagi]

My questions

• How long does it generally take you to get used to a car/track combo if you've never driven them before? It took me probably about 4 hours to get where I am now.
• With a time like that, taking into account its time trial and I'm quite close to the limit, would I fit in a race like that? For Willow Springs I felt quite okay before hand, but then finished P12 first race. Maybe, seeing as I'm new, its okay?
• How hard do you concentrate on driving, focusing on exactly hitting the apex, straightening at the right time, etc, and how much comes naturally?

Tbh trying to push a GT3, GTE or LMP2 car on hard tires, by now, I'm thinking I could spent the time needed to build up and run down an advanced civilization and never feel comftible with the hard tires ever.
PCARS2 is clustered with unexplained choises, secret setup effects, unintitive setup exploits, out right bugs, silly workarounds, bad game design, weird tire physics and bad models e.g. tire heating model. In short, while it's nice for casually playing around (imo still less fun than pcars1), on a high competitiv level the game falls apart. Pointless cut track definition the game doesn't explian or indicate plus bad penalties, so that we have to turn it off completly, is just the tip of the ice berg.

Phrasing it the other way around, if you aren't in a certain window with setup, weather and driving style, you will never experience confidence. And even if you do, there is still the chance that the rear tire runs a little hotter thasn allowed and you spin out the next corner without your fault. On top of that we have live track, correct me if I'm wrong, but imo it is invisible to the user but provides inconsistence about the tire grip. Inconcisitence in a game is not a good thing.

We still use pcars2 for our community because other games may have less but more massiv issues that are harder to work around. And by now we are well trained to work around pcars issues. However this post is so negativ also because I had a founding about tire physics yesterday on my LMP2 Road Am test. And now I know that the tire physics is plain wrong. Not as silly as iracing tire physics last time I looked at it and I understand the dilema the developers had, still it's nonsense but I theme that in another post.

 

[UnstopaPaul]

Tbh trying to push a GT3, GTE or LMP2 car on hard tires, by now, I'm thinking I could spent the time needed to build up and run down an advanced civilization and never feel comftible with the hard tires ever.
PCARS2 is clustered with unexplained choises, secret setup effects, unintitive setup exploits, out right bugs, silly workarounds, bad game design, weird tire physics and bad models e.g. tire heating model. In short, while it's nice for casually playing around (imo still less fun than pcars1), on a high competitiv level the game falls apart. Pointless cut track definition the game doesn't explian or indicate plus bad penalties, so that we have to turn it off completly, is just the tip of the ice berg.

Phrasing it the other way around, if you aren't in a certain window with setup, weather and driving style, you will never experience confidence. And even if you do, there is still the chance that the rear tire runs a little hotter thasn allowed and you spin out the next corner without your fault. On top of that we have live track, correct me if I'm wrong, but imo it is invisible to the user but provides inconsistence about the tire grip. Inconcisitence in a game is not a good thing.

We still use pcars2 for our community because other games may have less but more massiv issues that are harder to work around. And by now we are well trained to work around pcars issues. However this post is so negativ also because I had a founding about tire physics yesterday on my LMP2 Road Am test. And now I know that the tire physics is plain wrong. Not as silly as iracing tire physics last time I looked at it and I understand the dilema the developers had, still it's nonsense but I theme that in another post.

Perhaps a different thread for this stuff rather than the "confidence" thread?

 

[Zemke]

To get this thread back on topic...

I was also thinking that it might not be the best idea to compare yourself directly to the best drivers here in RSR, @kobusnell.
For example, I race in open lobbies quite regularly and I find it easy to finish in the top 5; I've even won several races. But when I join RSR events, I'm doing GREAT if I finish in the top 10. It's just not apples to apples, if you know what I mean.

The caliber of drivers here at RSR can be a cruel measuring stick if you're comparing yourself solely to them.

 

[Taorminator]

And to answer one of your first questions : I have to practice A LOT before I reach my potential. Otherwise I am easily 5/6 seconds of the pace. It takes me time mostly because I like to explore different setup combinations and look for a good compromise between speed and confidence with car. I also try to learn the track by myself and usually I do a TT after to see where I can improve using the fast guys's ghost. I know other people get much quicker to pace but for me it takes a long time.

 

[UnstopaPaul]

To try and figure out where/if I fit in, I tried to do the qualifying time for the LMP2 cars at Road America. I spent a lot of time, trying different lines, braking points, setups, and eventually set a 1:54.98. Reading the thread itself, and the responses to the qualifying time, makes it sound like it should be trivial.

I don't think you should interpret this as "trivial", just "easier" than previous TTs. It has been exceptionally hard to qualify for LMP2 in the previous races (if you were not split 1 for season 4 l think you would have likely struggled). This i the first time I've been able to hit the qualification marker myself, something I'm very happy with.

RSR has some pretty skilled individuals with lots of practice behind their belts. The more practice you have behind you in general, the less time any individual track will take to learn for a race. As an extreme example I logged 560 laps preparing for race 3 of season 4. That's too much. However that general investment paid dividends for the rest of the season and a large part of that practice has reinforced skills for the future. I would still expect personally to do 100 laps + if I wanted to be confident in my race though. It's different for everyone though, and I know at Vintage Springs there were some with nearly no laps behind them passing me.

As has been said above, measure against your own goals, not against the skill of others and you will increase in confidence and your own performance. No one in RSR is demanding you drive fast and the LMP target is purely due to the multi-class considerations (GT3s starting to pass LMPs I assume could cause carnage).

 

[kobusnell]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I really like the prototype cars, I enjoy it a lot, so I'm trying to improve.

I set myself the goal of trying to be consistent, so I set a private race settings to simulate the road america race to practice on my own.

I generally set 1:57s at the start of stints, 1:56s nearer the end. I actually managed to set a 1:55.4, quicker than the qualifying time, on a lap prior to an in-lap. I did all my laps on softs, even the last stint where track temp reached 50C. My last stint was only 17 laps, my front left had 20% left, but I could still do low 1:56s. I can probably push to do quicker laps, but I find it extremely easy to lose control of the car over the curbs.

Either way, I enjoyed it a lot. Managed to do 60 laps in 2:01 hours, including a simulated formation lap. it would be interesting to compare that with what happens on Sunday. I know it's not directly relate-able, with the on track fights and lapped traffic, but I think I'll at least get some kind of indication. I know I'll be shocked at the pace of the LMP2 guys, but I hope to one day race with these super-humans (or aliens) and finish within a couple of laps of the leaders. And I'll be careful having their times affect my confidence, I know they can do insane things. I already feel good after finishing my simulated race, through all the track temp variations and adjusting to heavier car after pitstop without checking whether the barriers are still in a working order. No damage, other than a percent or two engine at the stops.

I hope you guys get excited about le mans and organize events to celebrate. I'd love to take part in such a race. Even if I get lapped multiple times I'll still enjoy it.

I'll probably say it a lot going forward, but this community and everyone's attitude is amazing, and it makes you want to improve to provide a challenge for other's enjoyment. I'll try my best

 

[Mearcat]

Man I need to try and write shorter guides, I seriously waffle.....

The only thing I will add is “practice”. Most of the above state this and I will add another so it becomes practice - practice – practice - practice. You can never do enough.

Sim racing is almost the same as in real life, the more you put in the better you become. For season 4, my first in RSR I went through 10,500km testing and practicing the circuits because some of them I had never driven before.

Looking at it technically, a rough average of 5.5km a lap 10.5k equates to 1900 laps at roughly 1:50:00 a lap, 58hrs for all of season 4. take out the races themselves (about 1.5hrs each) that’s 49hrs practicing/testing. Over 6 tracks – 8hrs per track. That’s a rough guide and even after that I still made some mistakes (mostly pit stop settings) costing me places.

We all have our unique ways of learning a track, mine for example is to load the car and track in a private online event (as others have stated) without AI to begin with, with perfect weather, no damage or tyre ware and no penalties, and just drive round the track till I am confident.I keep going until I know the corners, their gears, the brake points and, ones that most will overlook, the bumps, slippy surfaces and which kerbs to avoid/use. Recognising when you are confident with the car and track is important. I find that it is when you don’t spin, stay on track, catch the slides and your lap times are consistently .300/.500 (will vary with opinion) within each other.

After this I will then change the settings to match the upcoming race conditions, so on goes damage/tyre wear/weather etc, but still no other cars so you can get used to the changes that the new conditions make. This is where you will most likely start to play with a setup to start making the car EASIER FOR YOU to drive. With all the practice before hand you will have a good base understanding of what need to improve with the car (turn in, oversteer here, slippy rear there etc).

From here begin adding AI so you start to have other cars on track.

Learning a track is a very progressive process. Building layer after layer of experience. You will find that some tracks take longer than others (Bathurst and Watkins Glen were mine).

As for fitting in, errr…. you past induction? You fit in. As for “finding your place” this is a missnomeaner, some will join and be quick putting them near the top. Most, like myself, will find they are mid-low pack to begin with but when enough effort (practice……getting sick of this word yet?) is put in you will begin to climb the grid.

Concentration for racing is difficult to explain but I’ll try and this is only my view by the way.

I don’t focus on hitting the apex as this is in the middle of the corner. 3 ¼ of the work for taking a corner has been done by then so don’t try and hit an apex, set yourself up to hit it. The remaining ¼ is the exit.

Your focus should be on the preparation going into a corner, braking/downshifting and turn in points, these are the critical parts for getting an apex and will always have a rhythm and the route round a track will always have a pattern (racing line).

Racing to me is a rhythm, accelerate/brake/turn rinse and repeat. The hardest part of any training is “finding the grove” or rhythm. If you drive everyday (most likely) have you noticed why when you are driving certain songs on your stereo seem to be more enjoyable whilst your driving? – the songs rhythm is matching what your brain is processing whilst driving.

Each track (race track) has its own beat, the more you practice the more you will begin to recognise the underlying pattern to the track:

exit corner/accelerate, gears up/brake, gears down/turn in, round corner - APEX/ and repeat (dum dum dum a corner bites the dust….dum dum dum).

Second to that, each track has its own route with each corner (or set of) having their own pattern. Studying a track from a plan or aerial shot (g**gle maps?) can help find that pattern. But most of all, coming full circle, practice it. As another racer (unstoperpaul I think) said in another post, practice it till you can sleep race it (yes weird as it sounds I have done this!).

Bit long but hopefully a good chunk of knowledge.